Big Things Podcast
A weekly show where we talk about the big things we're watching in marketing, social media, pop culture and sports. We also talk through signals we’re seeing that could inform the future of digital marketing.
You can catch the podcast every Friday wherever you listen or watch it on YouTube. Be sure to follow us on Instagram or TikTok for updates on every episode.
Big Things Podcast
Airline Etiquette & Praise Kinks (E6)
Should we be kind to our future AI overlords? What happened to airline etiquette? And does Mike have a praise kink? That’s before we even get into this week’s Big Things. We also chat about ByteDance taking over BookTok and Jessica Campbell making history as the first full-time female coach in the NHL.
More from us:
- Mitzi Payne @mmmitziP
- Mike Payne @mmmiiike
Timestamps:
- 01:00 – Thing 1: Should you be nice to AI chatbots?
- 03:20 – Gen Z are the nicest to bots & what happens if you’re rude.
- 07:00 – Should you recline your seat on an airplane?
- 12:20 – Tip your servers!
- 22:50 – Thing 2: ByteDance is moving into print. All about their new publication business.
- 25:00 – The impact #booktok has on print sales & some of our top books right now.
- 32:00 – Thing 3: Jessica Campbell has made history as the first full-time female coach in the National Hockey League. Why is this good for the game?
- 37:00 – What could the NHL do to attract new fans?
- 41:30 – How the NFL drew women in with WAGS, celebrities, post-game interviews, storytelling and more.
Show notes:
1. Easy Reads podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/easy-reads/id1728312993
Big Things with Mitzi (@mmmitzi) and Mike (@mmmiiike).
For more from Arcade, follow us on Instagram and TikTok @helloarcade. https://www.arcadearcade.ca/
Production by Morgan Berna, editing by Oliver Banyard.
Welcome to Big Things. I'm Mitzi. This is Mike.
Speaker 2:And this is our show where we talk about all the things that we're seeing in the world of marketing, social media, pop culture and sports. We'll also talk through signals that we're watching that could inform the future of digital marketing.
Speaker 1:You can catch a show every week on YouTube or wherever you listen to your podcasts, and make sure to follow us on Instagram for clips and updates on every episode.
Speaker 2:And, once again, if you were a listener of Waves or Tea for Lunch, which were our past shows, let's catch you up on how things are going to be a little bit different with this podcast specifically. The main things are there's going to be less interviews. It's more of Mitzi and I. There's going to be more news and pop culture, which we all love, of course, and then we're going to get into some signals and trends, like I mentioned before, that could inform digital marketing as we know it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So today we're going to be talking about three big things. The first one is should you be nice to your chat box? The second one is jessica campbell makes history as the first ever female nhl coach. And bite dance, the owner of tiktok is getting into books.
Speaker 2:That's right stacked show I know it's so crazy, I want to get right into the first one, because I'm excited about it okay should you be nice to your chatbot? So to set the scene here as talking to chatbots is now becoming more like a normal conversation as chat GPT continues to advance and other kind of chat AI models come on the scene. Ai users, which is us, face an awkward ethical dilemma, and that is that bots are programmed to be polite, but do we have to reciprocate?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's interesting because I actually don't chat to chat bots very often, like I don't really use chat gbt, mostly because, like I haven't mastered like prompting. The most I talk to is siri and she's like doesn't deserve a kind word from me Cause I feel like she can never get it together. I'll like try to talk to her on my phone and then like my like computer in the other room like picks it up and it just doesn't do what I need it to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it feels clunky or she's like here's a reference from the internet and I'm like I could have done that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then not all our devices in our home are all Siri, like. We've also got the Sonos speakers for TVs and music which I never use.
Speaker 2:Which you never use. But it's also Google or Alexa on that. It's not Siri. So it's like who am I talking to when? Who's going to listen? So already we're coming into these conversations with these chatbots a little bit charged. But this whole debate has recently spilled onto social media, where many people say one should practice politeness even with bots. Others think wasting kind words, conversing with code is inefficient.
Speaker 1:Conversing with code. Yeah, like the chatbots being code.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they're coded a certain way. Most of them are coded to have empathy or to learn human behaviors and emotions like empathy. So that's where this whole discourse comes in around. The idea of is how we talk to them going to influence their bias towards us and the way that they provide answers or information or recommendations? There have been some studies. A recent survey showed that Americans are split on being polite to AI. About 48% of 2000 Americans surveyed by talker research thought it was important, with Gen Z respondents being the friendliest to bots out of the generation.
Speaker 2:And around 27% of people agreed it was okay to be rude or even shout at the bots that you're using. I would say, off the cuff. If at first you're not sure, just do what gen z is doing yeah, I mean that's fair.
Speaker 1:I, I can. I mean, in general, it's like good to be polite to everyone you're talking to, but then the other thing that we were talking about with our team is that, like everything that you share in on the internet like lives forever, like there is a database where your prompts and everything's being stored. So I feel like if, in the case, one day where all of a sudden it gets leaked and gets pointed back to your account, it's probably best to like be polite, right, and not like be rude regardless of if it affects the output from the chat bot.
Speaker 2:You're saying to be careful what you say, in case, 10 years from now, it gets leaked and it gets canceled?
Speaker 1:And isn't it like general robot etiquette to be kind of like subservient to your like owner, or is that like improper thought?
Speaker 2:um, no, I think the their purpose at this stage is to provide a service, but because of how they're programmed to become more human, like over time, and to learn the behaviors of those that are using them then there's a chance that they might develop a bias towards people that are negative towards them, and then a different kind of bias towards people that are affirming and uplifting and yeah, interesting yeah, and they also might just learn some of your behavior.
Speaker 2:so if you're always kind of rude and aggressive, then you might slowly start to see your chatbot become more rude and blunt and aggressive towards you and their responses. There was another study in Japan obviously a place where rules and etiquette are more at the forefront. They concluded that being nice to chat GPT does pay off, and they said that impolite prompts may lead to increased bias, like we talked about incorrect answers or even refusal of answers.
Speaker 2:Stop refusal they can't refuse you you well, it depends how mean you're being yikes microsoft has also said, um, that chatbots, which is one of its top products, says ai. Ai may not react well to bad behavior as it's built to mimic human reactions. They were quoted as saying just like humans, ai can't always be the bigger person, so I don't know. It's. It's an interesting conversation, a big question to ask and I think, um, well, I saw on reddit actually, because you know I love reddit, a lot of our listeners know that too. I've seen some engineers and people on reddit say that it helps to add extra phrases to kind of like set the scene for the chatbot, like take a deep breath or offer a tip to make these models produce better answers. Others joke that generative AI has a praise kink which I thought was a funny way to talk about it for their apparent need for positive affirmations and potential rewards. So I mean I can relate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say sounds familiar. I wouldn't have used those words.
Speaker 2:But I mean if we're comparing ourselves, I would say I can relate. I feel like I wouldn't have used those words. But I mean, if we're comparing ourselves, I would say I probably have a praise King too. I'm a words of affirmation kind of guy. So if you, if you prop me up, talk me up, butter me up, my output's going to be better too.
Speaker 1:It's so true. I mean, don't we all kind of have that?
Speaker 2:I guess yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like in our industry I never expect praise, but when we get it I'm just kind of like don't know what to do with it. I'm like wow, wow, wow, okay, let's move on. I'm just like I don't accept it graciously. But I think, in terms of like relationships in real life, like outside of work, I think all of us do better with a little bit of positive enforcement.
Speaker 2:Yeah and I don't. I think AI would not be like that. Like yeah and I don't. I think AI would not be like that. Like it would like take your praise and say thank you for it, you know if.
Speaker 2:AI is good at one thing it's accepting praise without belittling itself. For sure. Percentages I rattled off it was like 48 percent versus 52 percent, like it's a pretty divided topic, like everything right now. That's very political, politicized even. I don't know if you've seen on TikTok all the videos of people debating if an economy on an airplane, if you should recline your seat or not and showing people that do, and then the person behind them freaking out and all the arguments that ensue. It's just like this is the world we live in.
Speaker 1:I know, have you like. How do you feel about that question? Like, if you're an economy, should you put your seat back? Recline your seat.
Speaker 2:To me, this is an obvious answer, and that is if your seat reclines, you're entitled to recline it.
Speaker 1:You're entitled to, but should you, is it the polite thing to do?
Speaker 2:I don't think that matters, because you've paid for the seat that you're sitting in and it has that feature. So if it, if using a feature on a seat that you paid for is impolite to me, that's an airline problem and not a yeah, not a customer problem right, it's definitely an airline problem, but I just always feel so bad reclining my seat.
Speaker 1:Like I don't feel bad if it's a long flight, because like what else are you gonna do, but if it's a short little flight I usually don't doesn't help that all those seats are so uncomfortable, yeah, and it's like barely reclined.
Speaker 2:It goes from like this to this yeah, but if you can add 10 comfort for yourself by reclining your seat like you kind of want to do it.
Speaker 1:But knowing that it adds 10% discomfort to the person behind you.
Speaker 2:It must just be certain people because, like for me, I don't understand that because I have short legs, so if someone in front of me reclines their seat it doesn't affect me, but there's obviously people out there that feel very strongly about it.
Speaker 1:It must be the people that have long legs. Yeah, but that just ain't me. I've also seen those tiktoks and it feels like it's kind of like a skit, because they get so hot and bothered. Yeah, they like get out of their seat and they're like about to fight someone it is possible, but I feel like most people are bad actors.
Speaker 2:So I feel like you can kind of tell what's a skit versus what's a real, just like person on tilt yeah, this is like a hot take, but I feel like most acting is cringy.
Speaker 1:yeah, like, even if I'm watching this like amazing film and I know I kind of like I'm it sounds like I hate movies. And it's not that I hate movies, I just don't like choose to watch movies often. But even if I'm watching like a really like critically acclaimed movie, I kind of get the ick when I see someone like doing a dramatic scene or like a monologue, like it's kind of embarrassing to think about like all the people watching them and I just think it's like yeah, I'm just I get cringed.
Speaker 2:What's embarrassing about it? Because it's just at the end of the day. It's art. Yeah, I'm just. I get cringed. What's embarrassing about it? Because it's just at the end of the day, it's art.
Speaker 1:We all know that they're acting for sure, like we're supposed to not know but it's like they're so deep in this, like other person, that they're pretending to be like. I think that's kind of funny like method actors yeah, like I don't think so much. Like, say, a period piece, it's like okay, like we're all in this together, we're're all wearing, like you know, the costumes and like have this set. But like, if it's like a modern day everyday person, like being super dramatic in like a courtroom, like that is embarrassing, why, I don't know.
Speaker 1:It's hard, I'm just like embarrassed for them.
Speaker 2:It's entertainment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get it and I appreciate actors. I just like.
Speaker 2:Like think about Broadway, like we all know that we're at a play.
Speaker 1:Well, Broadway is different because they're singing. Singing, acting and dancing. That takes like multiple skills, but I think personally I feel like some acting, not all acting some acting doesn't look that hard.
Speaker 2:Okay, you need to stop.
Speaker 1:I feel like acting is very hard. Yeah, totally, I feel like acting is very hard. Yeah, totally like delivering a line within, like there's incredibly good actors out there, like I think some people can like enunciate in a way that like really like captures your attention, but that is like a very small pool of people like in the, the world of actors. Like that's not that like many people who have that like talent to do that, like a lot of actors, just like no shade to actors.
Speaker 2:But I just find it like I don't know, maybe I need to take an acting class or something and be humbled a little bit I think, so I'm gonna sign us up yeah, sign us up, we're already planning to do improv, but I just find it kind of cringy at this rate, we're going to be in like musical theater or something just like our daughter who are you going to diss next?
Speaker 1:no, I know I don't mean to diss actors, like I really appreciate you all and all the work that you're doing.
Speaker 1:Um, and I appreciate hollywood a lot and celebrities, and thank you for the vanity fair after party, but, um, yeah, that's all I'll say about that all right, no coming back from that one but speaking about ai, like it feels like this, like discourse is kind of like reminds me of what people people pass judgments on, like whether someone's a good person based on like how they act in public, or like like right now it seems like we're talking about like how they treat their AI.
Speaker 2:It reminds me of like how people pass a judgment on how people treat their servers, because I feel like that's like similar litmus test yeah, I think that's like the number one way, especially if you're in the dating scene like the first on your first date, if you're in a kind of like a service environment, how does the person you're sitting across from treat? Your server really dictates the rest of the date, but also if you want to see them again and also just your overall assessment of if they're potentially a good person or not for sure.
Speaker 1:I've been there. I've been in moments where, like the person I'm on a date with, like did not treat wait, you've gone on dates with people other than me yeah, before I met you, oh, long, long, long time ago, yeah okay this is just jogging up a memory that I've repressed, actually so were you on some dates with people that didn't treat the server as well?
Speaker 1:yeah okay yeah, it wasn't good I don't think I've ever really like some people could be nicer, but I don't think I've ever sat across someone that was just like blatantly rude to a waiter I don't think I could ever be rude to a waiter, knowing like I've been a server before, like I just like, even if, like I think you can recognize like bad service, but I'll never like not tip, I'll still like be kind, like I just really feel for servers.
Speaker 2:That is an art yeah, and I think a lot of people, while we're on the topic, walk into restaurants or cafes or wherever they're going with this like sense of entitlement, that the tip needs to be earned. But I feel like I've, just like always, had a different perspective In my mind. I'm always like walking into these environments, thinking, okay, I need to set the tone so that I get the best service.
Speaker 2:For sure walking into these environments, thinking, okay, I need to set the tone so that I get the best service for sure. So it's like how you treat them and then like, if you're I mean, this doesn't affect it if you're just there for a meal and you tip at the end.
Speaker 2:But if you're going to be like doing multiple things at this venue, like how you tip the first time is going to dictate how they treat you the next time and the next time, yeah so I want especially if I'm going with friends or if I'm trying to impress someone, I want to be somewhere where I've shown them that I'm a good customer and that I value what they're doing, so that they're happy to see me and they want to give me the best service and even like, go above and beyond you know?
Speaker 1:yeah, this reminds me. Do you feel like tip tipping? Our tipping industry has gone too far, like everyone's asking for tips these days I think there's obviously two sides to everything like that.
Speaker 2:It is hard for me to wrap my head around tipping when there's little like service involved you know, like when you order pizza for pickup and you go pick it up and they're asking for a tip. Right, you know, like you, you order pizza for pickup and you go pick it up and they're asking for a tip. Right, you know like, you made the meal but you were paid for that work, right, you haven't, like served me a beverage or like totally done anything beyond that you know, and that's hard for me to understand.
Speaker 2:Also, though, I know that in the service industry and the food, and like food and beverage in general, people tend to be underpaid. So so, I empathize with that as well. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like I agree, like if I think there are a lot of moments, like if someone has served me or spend time to like bring me anything or whatever, like I'll always tip, like even in cafes, like I don't mind tipping. But there's some places like actually, starbucks just started including tipping in their app when they didn't used to and it got like a lot of like controversy around it because they're like last thing I'm going to do now is tip my barista. But I feel like there's some industries like like, say, starbucks baristas, like they deserve tips because, like they're working overdrive. There's an expectancy that like as soon as you place your order at Starbucks, it's immediately ready and there's a bunch of people in the background orchestrating this crazy environment. So I feel like if anyone deserves tips, it's them. So I don't disagree or I don't think tipping is out of control in food and beverage industries, but yes, I think the tip and culture where it's like doing anything for someone deserves the tip, like that's kind of silly sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you make a good point.
Speaker 2:I feel like it's so nuanced because even with the Starbucks mobile order, I get why some people would be like there's no chance in tipping on that, because it's similar to like ordering something for pickup and there's no service involved.
Speaker 2:But I also think, especially in a coffee shop kind of context not all the time, but a lot of the times like we use mobile pickup with Starbucks when we order often, and usually there's like one or two or even three Starbucks in the city, depending on where we are and where we're going, that we frequent the most. And I think, like in the same way that you're going the coffee shops that you go to to sit down and drink your coffee or read a book or do some work, um, with mobile pickup you still have the opportunity to build a relationship with your baristas, you know, and to be like part of the community or be a regular yeah even though you're just walking and getting it and leaving yeah and so that's where I like a tip feature in those uh contexts, because then, as you get to know that those baristas that work at that location they like you, they know that you appreciate them and like one dollar extra on your order.
Speaker 2:It's like you're not going to notice that yeah, and there's a starbucks in town.
Speaker 1:it's so busy it's like impossible to find parking. When you're like just picking up a coffee, they, their whole lot is just for that, but it's still like so busy it's like impossible to find parking. When you're like just picking up a coffee, their whole lot is just for that, but it's still like so busy it's just like such a crowded Starbucks. They always have like eight people working. It's always so busy and, without fail, if I go to pick up a coffee in the morning, this one guy he's like smiling and saying good morning and saying thank you for everyone who picks up a coffee. I'm like you know how exhausting that is to be on your feet for like eight hours doing that.
Speaker 2:You have to just be a really happy person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they deserve tips, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think anytime someone goes above and beyond in terms of acknowledging you and serving you, they deserve a tip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really think the only times that I've started to tip less is when I go to a place frequently or multiple times, and I've done my part. But there's just like a waiter or a server or a barista that just chooses violence, like not true violence, but just chooses to be grumpy anyway even though, like I'm going above and beyond to be thankful or like to ask nicely and to tip well, and after that I feel like there's this slow regression for me of like I'm just going to try less and tip less because no matter what I do, this person just isn't enjoying life.
Speaker 1:But you always tip 10% at least, right, yeah, or 20? 10% is low 10% is like bare minimum.
Speaker 2:I feel like I start at 20 and if you do something to like erode that, then I'll come down slowly like a few percent at a time yeah over repeat visits yeah but if it's impeccable and amazing, I'm happy to go to 25 or 30, just because I want that experience again absolutely.
Speaker 1:Um, this whole conversation reminds me of this book that we were reading for a book club. It's called Clara and the Sun and the whole book is basically about this girl, josie, and her robot. It's like set in like a future, dystopian time, and her robot's called Clara and it's like it's a good robot name.
Speaker 1:They're called Artificial Friends and basically the whole book's about Clara and like her journey and like learning about like human emotions and learning about learning about her like family that she lives with and stuff. It's a really good book. You should go check it out and then listen to the podcast episode about that episode. It's called easy reads, but in that book they have this like play date kind of situation where the, the girls and Clara are greeting a bunch of friends that come visit and one of the parents of the friends walks in and goes to the robot Clara and she's like I never know how to greet you Like are you a toaster? Am I supposed to acknowledge you? Or do I treat you like a person, say hello and hi? And that was like so interesting because I feel like saying there's a future where AI actually becomes like robot type, like things that operate around us and kind of like help us in our day and become like artificial friends or whatever. Like I would be. I would feel kind of stuck too.
Speaker 2:Like am I supposed to acknowledge you and treat you like a person and greet you and like be that kind of like welcoming, I don't know, or or are you like a fridge that just kind of like sits in the corner of the room providing some utility I think we're going to learn really quickly that we, if, if it actually follows that kind of progression where ai and like robots become that integrated into our daily life and they actually like walk around like a human and interact like a human, I think we're going to learn really quickly to engage with them like humans right and especially like because we've seen enough of the like, doom and gloom kind of storylines through Hollywood and movies and and even just like prophecies from some of these tech giants like Elon Musk that I think we're going to bias towards caution and we're also going to want these entities to learn to like us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, as our producer Morgan says, we better be nice to our overlords.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, I think that's the moral of the story. That's where I lean towards is just like treat them with kindness, engage with them, make them like you, just like you would want your server or barista to treat your robots as you wish you'd be treated there's no like negative outcome.
Speaker 2:It doesn't take that much extra effort. But the possibilities. If you're just like constantly rude and not a nice person, then it's just like with a human, like it's just gonna come nice person. Then it's just like with a human, like it's just going to come back around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it could get leaked, so just keep that in mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Practice good internet use.
Speaker 2:I feel like we're in this like post canceled culture era right now. So it feels like safer in general, but if you're a crappy person it's going to bubble to the surface.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we can't get too comfortable true um, okay, let's move on to thing two. Tiktok parent company is moving into print. Bite dance, the chinese technology giant that owns tiktok, made an initial move into publishing digital books last year, but now the company's publishing imprint, which is called eighth note press, is planning to significantly significantly expand its retail footprint by publishing print editions and selling them in physical bookstores. They plan to release 10 to 15 books a year, with the first titles arriving in early 2025. It'll focus on genres that have been proven popular among millennial and gen z readers, mostly romance, romantasy and young adult fiction.
Speaker 1:Eighth Note is closely tracking what's trending online, including book talk, obviously, and it's building backwards by acquiring books that feed into those trends and conversations. This makes so much sense to me. It's so interesting to see this whole like book talk like trend, or like all these people talking about books on tiktok start to like kind of feed this like like how it makes sorry, I'm gonna say that all over again, say it again. This makes so much sense to me because if I were tiktok and I watch this trend of book talk kind of like grow, I I would want to get in on that business, like why wouldn't you, especially knowing that so many people go to TikTok to recommend books. Tiktok has been seen to drive so much sales so like. Even though it's weird to think that TikTok company could publish books, it also just feels like they're just trying to get in on the business action.
Speaker 2:In on the business action, but also they understand their young audiences. We've kind of we've tracked signals from time to time about how millennials yes, but gen z even more are reacting to like nostalgia. You know, like we saw cassette tapes kind of have a comeback and um many other things that I'm blanking on right now, but I think I think it's cool to see them also just like thinking about content outside of just doom scrolling on a singular app, you know.
Speaker 2:And finding ways to engage with these same communities in other contexts. That's interesting to me, but of course it's brilliant that they're leveraging trends and like data that they can get from their own platform yeah to go off platform and working backwards because those genres romance, romance and young adult fiction they're like huge on tiktok, um.
Speaker 1:But as I was looking into this I got a really interesting stat in 2024 for so far prints. In 2024, so far print sales for authors with large audiences on BookTok, including Colleen Hoover, sarah J Maas, freda McFadden and Rebecca Yarris, they've reached 41 million units and that's a 23% increase compared to this time last year. And then, just to compare, total adult fiction market print sales are only up 6%. Adult fiction market print sales are only up six percent. So all those like romance, fantasy, that like whole genre that's like dominated by these authors. It's really like you can see the impact that book talk has on print.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's with book talk has come this emergence of the, the creators that are just like book recommenders. They're avid readers and they're sharing their top fives and rating books and things like that, and that's honestly one of the things that got me back into reading this year. Um, I had been thinking about it, I knew what genres I liked, but, um, it was this one creator I think his handle's smitty1242 on TikTok, but he's like a fun, cool dude, similar age to me, maybe a bit younger, and he just had the inside track on fantasy and science fiction books, and he made it so easy for me to kind of make my reading list of, like the first, you know, five to ten books that I wanted to hit for the year based on his reviews.
Speaker 1:So, yeah and same. I get so many book recommendations on TikTok. I also love like searching a book on TikTok and seeing all these like reviews of people yeah, so it's really cool.
Speaker 2:What's your favorite book this year that you've discovered? On TikTok While you're thinking, I can go because I already know.
Speaker 2:Well, I have to first give credit to you because you introduced me to that creator that I mentioned, um, and it was because he talked about a specific book called the will of the many, which was a fantasy book, and it was more of a recently published fantasy book as well. There's a sequel coming soon and I can't wait for it, but that book was so good and that was the one that really pulled me back into fantasy. I've also, I think, like when I was younger, in elementary school and even into high school, I read a lot of books and I was into fantasy and sci-fi. But I think as I got into university, we already have seen data that says university students are reading less than ever. But I just it just wasn't on brand for me to read fantasy books at that stage. You know you, there's all this pressure to be cool and to show up a certain way, and you don't think fantasy is cool?
Speaker 2:at the time. No, at that age, probably for a lot of people, no. But at this point in my life I feel like I'm more secure in who I am and you're married to me, you're stuck with me, you love me, anyway, anyway. So I can read whatever I want, so fantasy, but also. Then this same creator got me into my other favorite book of the year, which was different but also fantasy, and it was called the Sword of Kaigen, k-a-i-g-e-n, and that was probably the best book I've ever read in my life.
Speaker 2:You're welcome I want to read it. That's the one that you cried in right I don't think I cried, but I would, because we read at night like bedtime and I feel like there's a couple times where I put my book down way too late at night to go to bed and I like couldn't sleep because I was just feeling the weight of the emotions, of the things that happened in the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I'm about to get into a really popular fantasy book, uh called fourth wing.
Speaker 2:It's our next book that's on my reading list what really? Yeah, just because people in the fantasy space talk about it a lot yeah, it's like a very popular book. Yeah, but for the girlies is it, I don't know, okay, I don't have to read it, but you can read it, feel free, we should read it together. Okay, sure.
Speaker 1:Would, you.
Speaker 2:I can be a guest on your other podcast. No.
Speaker 1:Speaking of, if you're not familiar, I have another podcast, it's called Easy Reads. We just did our first book event last week. It was a little book swap and it was so fun. Everyone brought a book, wrapped it, wrote a little card about it and then you could like trade it in for a different book that someone else brought. And it was just really fun and I feel really proud of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it looked fun. I was on kid duty, but I'd love to be at the next one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, come. We had one boy at our last one.
Speaker 2:Nice, it's a club for the girlies, so far.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I mean, you're always welcome to come if you want.
Speaker 2:All right, but you haven't said your favorite book that you've read so far.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, it's hard because I feel like a lot of the books that we've read on the show it's pretty popular on TikTok. One of the best books I've read this year um was matthew perry's uh biography and I actually listened to it on audio because it like he's got a great voice, one of those actors who really like, whose voice really pull you in um, but it was really good. It was really sad, but it was really good and that's also a really popular one, not necessarily in book talk world, but it was really good. I feel like a few a really popular one, not necessarily in book talk world, but it was really good.
Speaker 2:I feel like a few months ago you rated a book five out of five.
Speaker 1:I rated a few books. Oh, I rated a book. Um, I'm glad my mother died, or my mom died by, I forget what it's her name is.
Speaker 2:We can drop it in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that book was really good. It's a memoir and it's really it's like. I also listened to it. It was like really well done, like really important, really like some parts sad, some parts fun and funny. I also read Just for the Summer, which is actually one of those like popular romance books on BookTok too, by Abby jimenez.
Speaker 2:That's a good one she like skyrocketed I think that's the one I was thinking for you, yeah tick tock specifically like helped her really like pump her book out.
Speaker 1:Um, so yeah, that's a good one cool, yeah, books.
Speaker 2:Bite dance is getting into it. I also feel like bite dance has funny names for things Like. Bytedance is a funny name. Eighth Note Publishing is a funny name.
Speaker 1:It's quite the tongue twister. Eighth Note Publishing, I know, and even TikTok, like obviously.
Speaker 2:it just seems like second nature now.
Speaker 1:But when?
Speaker 2:it was a new app. Tiktok was such like a weird name for an app, like does it have to do with like time or clocks, or what you know Made me time or clocks, or what you know made me think of kesha. I know same, yeah, but there's no brand partnership with kesha, so we were all confused but here we are too bad talk's one of our favorite apps. Now they're just coming up with other things with weird names I just got speaking of talk tiktok.
Speaker 1:I just got the stem feature on me too.
Speaker 2:I have it now too. I haven't explored it, but I noticed I didn't?
Speaker 1:it was so boring. And then I felt like embarrassed because I was like, clearly I need this feed.
Speaker 2:This isn't the hot garbage that I'm used to, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm like bring me back to Celebrity Gossip. But yeah, it was like math equations and like Cool, I'm going to have to check it out. Like dinosaur discoveries. I think that sounds like my normal algorithm, maybe one day I'll evolve and really enjoy that section, but so far it's a no-go for me.
Speaker 2:You use those parts of your brain all day at work.
Speaker 1:So if you just need to do a scroll at the end of the day, then go hard. Well, that's a nice thing.
Speaker 2:For thing three. Today, Jessica Campbell makes history as the first female NHL assistant coach so cool. The 32-year-old was hired by the Seattle Kraken in July and on Tuesday night stood behind the roster on the bench for their season opener against the St Louis Blues.
Speaker 1:Question what's a Kraken?
Speaker 2:Kraken is like a sea monster, isn't it? Oh, I don't know, you never watched movies that had like pirates and they're like talking about the Kraken.
Speaker 1:No, like what movie? Like Peter Pan. I don't think they've mentioned Kraken in that movie.
Speaker 2:No, I want to say there is talk of it in the Pirates of the Caribbean, movies like that. But anyways, that's what a Kraken is. And Seattle is coastal so it kind of makes sense Got it.
Speaker 2:So they played the St Louis Blues. Jessica Campbell was quoted as saying I definitely understand that the magnitude and the importance of this moment is really important for our game. Before joining the Kraken, campbell had made history in the American Hockey League as an assistant coach for the Coachella Valley Firebirds talk about crazy names. She helped the team reach the Calder Cup finals in both her seasons there and before that, during the pandemic, where this all kind of started for her. Some NHL players were looking for ice time and all the rinks were closed, but she had access through her power skating company and after the players skated with her they were all impressed and started inviting their other elite hockey friends to participate in these skates. So the Seattle Kraken they're coached by former Stanley cup champion Dan Bilsma, who brought Campbell in after he was appointed in may.
Speaker 2:So I've read a couple articles about this because I think it's cool and I'm also a hockey fan and I kept seeing articles and journalists and even this coach and Campbell herself say things like it's good for the game and I totally agree. But I was just trying to do some thinking around like why is it actually good for the game Other than the fact that it's cool to see a female coach in a male-dominated sport. What is the benefits? And I'm not an expert in this, but some of the things that I've thought about are, um, I do think, as someone who hires people, um, in the agency that we run together, I'd think when you open up job or even leadership opportunities to a whole new group of people that you haven't accessed before, that is good. It's exciting because, at the end of the day, haven't accessed before, that is good. It's exciting, cause at the end of the day, especially in a sport, you're trying to win a championship. So, whether it's your players or your coaching staff or anyone kind of peripheral to that team, you want to have the best chance to win. So if your best chance to win is a woman on your coaching staff, then you should absolutely do that.
Speaker 2:So I think, credit to them, to the Kraken organization, for being the first to do it, and I think more will follow, because we've seen that in other leagues, like the NBA, the NFL, even in tennis and stuff like that. I also think it's cool, um, how we've seen incredible woman in other industries, like in in the roles of entrepreneurs or creators or politicians, humanitarians and, of course, athletes, so why not coaches too? I think it raises the ceiling of what's possible. And then my last thought. I think, on the other hand, in the same way that women's sports are now getting more airtime and money is good for sports in general, I think having women in leadership in men's sports opens things up to more audiences, which is everyone's goal, which means more growth and new ways of thinking, whether that's strategically or even just like intangibly Um, but those were my kind of thoughts as I processed this and did some research.
Speaker 1:Totally. Yeah. I mean, obviously it's a great thing for the sport. It's great to see women like take on coaching roles. I love seeing like women owners or women coaches I think it's so cool. And women refs I feel like the NFL has a lot of women refs. I haven't seen that as much as the NHL. But yeah, honestly, the NHL like I know I'm Canadian, like I should be like a huge NHL fan. It's like the Canadian thing to do, but like it's just not that interesting for me. Yeah, but I want I want them to do well. Like I got so into the football and the NFL this year. So as I was thinking about this and like thinking about this appointment, I was thinking what could the NHL do to like capture me as a fan?
Speaker 2:Right Cause we were talking about this and you were saying that you know, like you're, you've been more drawn to the NFL and you have your reasons why. And then, secondary to that would probably be NBA, basketball, maybe tennis a bit.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Um your reasons why yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I'm trying to distill some of those reasons, right, um, and I'm sure this will come to no one's surprise, but I just I like need more of the like fluffy, fun stuff outside of the game, because I have some beef with the na, the nhl. Like hockey in general, it's kind of hard to follow because it goes so fast and not much happens. You're watching this puck. Sometimes I lose the puck. I'm like wait a second, where did it go? All you see is bodies. With football and with basketball, it's kind of clear as day and the points are so high I can't change the rules of the game and I accept that. So instead, here are my other suggestions for marketing the NHL lay it on us.
Speaker 1:I need more women in the game. So, like I said, like coaches, this is great, you know, small step forward and like love to see it, but I want to see, like coaches, broadcasters. I think the NFL has such amazing broadcasters, but I really don't see that in NHL. Like every time you've you've watched a game, it's like usually like old white dudes. So I would love to see women on, like the broadcast space in, specifically, hockey yeah, there are some female broadcasters and I would say they do a good job.
Speaker 2:But in general the tone of hockey from the teams to from the players to the coaches, to the announcers and broadcasters is all kind of the same and it redneck is not the right word, but just kind of like the ultra canadian, kind of like hard-hitting, bullish kind of vibe and tone and that I think I could understand how that would be off-putting to yes, it's not that fun a female fan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it even is hard.
Speaker 2:It feels less approachable to me as someone who played hockey and reffed hockey and has been a lifelong oilers fan. Don't come for me flames fans. Um, even for me, coming from watching NFL or NBA into watching NHL feels a little bit cold.
Speaker 1:Totally. I also feel like there's not enough like flashy stars, villains and wags.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Like I think in general, like NHL, there's probably less money in it than like the other leagues, like NBA or NFL, there's probably less money in it than like the other leagues, like NBA or NFL. But I just feel like there's not, like there's no like flashy villain that I can like, like watch, or like um, like big star that has like a huge, like mansion and like bigger than life personality, like they're all just kind of like the same like, and maybe that that's a generalization. I don't know that much about NHL players, but I just feel in general like some sort of like flashy, like like I don't know player and wife and party and, you know, like some like more.
Speaker 2:I totally know what you mean because, I think, like avid hockey fans might disagree with you off the cuff because they know a lot about all the players and you get the nuance of the different personality types and the adversaries and the rivalries and all that kind of stuff. But I get that. It's hard to kind of get there and I think part of it has been that there's been less content on streaming platforms. Like we get a lot from football, we get a lot from F1.
Speaker 2:We get a lot from tennis and golf and basketball. Totally Like shows and stuff like that that take you behind the curtain.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But just the other thing that I think makes a difference is I feel like the media training is just different in the NHL for players and coaches too. Maybe it's media training, maybe it's just the culture of the sport.
Speaker 1:I think it's a culture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it could be both like media trading, that's perpetuating that culture. But no one says what they're actually thinking, except a couple like kind of rogue coaches Um, I'm blanking on the guy's name but maybe I'll add it to the show notes but um, there's a couple coaches that just say whatever the hell they want to say. But for the most part players are kind of programmed to just give generic answers, support their team, not react emotionally and just kind of give the same sort of like word salad around how they played that period and what they're going to do next period so so it's just you don't really feel like you get past that into who they actually are, how they actually feel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, too much word salad. Like I'll give you two examples for this. Like obviously Travis Kelsey and Taylor Swift are a big you know part of why so many women have been watching football last season. But it's like it's good for the sport and it's good for the league and the league like really leaned in and did a bunch of content about it. A lot of fans were upset about it, but like it was good for all of us to have something else to kind of like be excited about. That's like game adjacent. There's like nothing like that in hockey. The other thing, another example is Mike Tomlin. This weekend, like we watched the jets game versus what's his team with pittsburgh steelers pittsburgh steelers.
Speaker 1:I love the steelers a lot, they're one of my favorite teams. But specifically I like the coach, mike tom tomlin. Yeah, he is so cool because he just doesn't seem like he puts up with any like I don't know bs. Yeah, and he did like a post game interview because his team won, they like killed it against the jets and it was like a big game because everyone was like expecting the jets to do amazing. They just got this like star player or whatever. And in the press conference they were asking for his reaction and all he said was like that's why I'm well compensated mic drop and he left. Like that was just so beautiful. I'm like he said other things before that, but when he was answering that question, that's like what he said and I just like that's such a great soundbite, it gives us something to chew on. That's outside of the game. Like we just need like the sideline stuff. Like all those post-game interviews of like the hockey players in the change room like they give us nothing.
Speaker 1:I know, yeah, I think you're onto something yeah, okay, the other thing that they need is more storytelling. So, like you mentioned too, like there's no documentaries really about that, I think there is one that just came out called. Face Off, which we should watch but, like NFL films, has been around for a long time. They like put a lot of money into like telling the story of their teams and their players, and they really don't do much of that for hockey yeah, we got the same for NBA.
Speaker 2:Like we got the last dance, we got starting five. There's been all sorts of different docuseries and movies, even that movie about Michael Jordan that Ben Affleck was in.
Speaker 1:I forget what it's called air or no, I that's not.
Speaker 2:It not the big short good movie though I think it was called air. But no, I that's not. It Not the big short good movie, though I think it was called air. But yeah, there's just been so much of that, so like whether you're a really intense fan or just kind of like a fringe fan. You know the league, you know the players, you, you get the language and the dialogue and it's easy to jump in. But yeah, I feel like NHL has been tough. The one thing I will give the NHL is I feel like NHL has been tough. The one thing I will give the NHL is I feel like, as someone who watches multiple leagues and their playoffs, nhl playoffs have to be the best playoffs but that's because of the actual game, right like that's what makes it so good yeah, but you also really see the fan bases come to life and you also see, because the season is long and then the playoffs are long, because they're all best of seven series.
Speaker 2:It is so grueling and you, the put, you, the players, grind it out and that's where you start to see some of the walls come down and the emotions come out but how do you see that? In like post-game interviews and and like social media.
Speaker 1:So I I was just going to say we need more pregame, postgame content and halftime content. Like the NFL has obviously a huge Superbowl performance, like not that they need to go to that scale, but like give us something else to like be watching as part of this whole like package. You know like create like a world around NH, nhl for other like people who can like get into it. You know like there's nothing really that happens, like not even know if, like I'm sure playoffs is really exciting, but I just like I remember for different games and like football for example, like they really create like such great storytelling around before and after the games.
Speaker 1:Like remember there was that crazy snowstorm, I think it was in buffalo yeah and they, like the city, offered anyone who came to the stadium and shoveled snow like a free ticket to a game and like thousands of people came like that's a good story, like there's just like nothing that's really happening around hockey yeah, I mean there's definitely fan access points and opportunities especially for, like, the super fans, like when I went to, when I've gone to games in edmonton, for example, like that place is crazy and to be an edmonton fan you're part of a movement but I haven't seen that.
Speaker 2:You know like so what we need is, because we're kind of on the fringe, we need anyone who's a listener or watching on YouTube, that is a big hockey fan come to us with some counterpoints, give us some ideas of what it is that makes the NHL special compared to the NBA or the NFL, or even things that we need to watch so that we can get it more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, like the NHL, I'm going to pay attention a bit more to how they they do, like their social and things. But maybe they need a good like influencer push or something yeah because NFL does that.
Speaker 2:They just need better wags for sure.
Speaker 1:Well, there's other stuff going on in women's sports this weekend, wasn't there?
Speaker 2:yep. Speaking of women's sports, the Liberty just won the WNBA final against the Minnesotanesota links. Um, I think the wnba obviously made some huge leaps and bounds this year, so it was cool to kind of see that season come to a close. It was a little bit controversial because, um, there was a foul called right towards the end of the game that gave the Liberty the opportunity to tie it and send it to overtime, and lots of people thought that foul shouldn't have been called, including LeBron. He jumped on Twitter right away and was like you can't be making those like weak calls at the end of a final like that. Let the players decide the outcome, which makes complete sense. And then it went to overtime, and then the Liberty ended up winning where the Lynx otherwise would have if the foul hadn't been called.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't watch the game at all. I have no idea what's happening in the WNBA, but I did see Nike's video about it, which was so epic it gives me chills just thinking about it. It was like a slow-mo video of the statue of liberty the torch, the torch holding the flame, and it was like drone, like footage, footage, like going around it, and then it shows that the statue of liberty hand has like a championship ring on it and then the tagline was liberty has a nice ring to it.
Speaker 2:Nike is right now. They're killing it in the copy game. I want to know who the copywriter is for their like specifically, I think, basketball athletes content.
Speaker 1:In general, like Nike's copywriting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even around the NBA championship last year and around the Olympics they came out with some really cool stuff.
Speaker 1:That's the one prompt I know for Tech. Gbt is like pretend you're a Nike copywriter.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you got to talk them up.
Speaker 1:That's all I got.
Speaker 2:You got to really tell them, you got to speak identity into your chat bot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got to really empower the chat bot.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's the only one I've ever tried.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's all we got today, ended off with the Liberty. Make sure you're nice to your chat bot. I got the gong to send us out, but please watch on YouTube, like, subscribe, follow us on Instagram, drop a comment, send it to your friends. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:Beautiful. I'm starting to warm up to it.
Speaker 2:I'm not hitting it as hard either. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Well, that was fun. We made it past 40 minutes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did. Sorry about that.
Speaker 2:Sorry about that.